The 2022 Stack Overflow Survey

Colin Loretz: Welcome to build
and learn My name is Colin

CJ Avilla: And I'm CJ And today
we're gonna talk about the Stack

Overflow Developer Survey from 2022

Colin Loretz: Yeah this is a super
exciting thing I don't think I

participated in it but I saw the results
and I think it's gonna be fun to dive into

CJ Avilla: Yeah I I did I did fill it out
this time around I think I've probably

only done it like three times In the past
but it's always super interesting to see

what people are thinking about in terms
of tooling what they're doing in terms

of learning like how much they're getting
paid for each stack Like all of those

data points are so so interesting every
year I I kind of I get really excited

when it comes out So I'm pumped to to go
through and I'm also really interested to

hear just your thoughts about the results

Colin Loretz: Yeah Before we get into
that let's talk a little bit about like

kind of meta about the podcast So this
is episode two we recorded episode one

It's been a little while now And you
did all the editing I'd love to kind of

just chat about like What that was like
especially for people out there who might

be interested in podcasting on their
own we're recording this with Zencaster

We recorded the first one in zoom just
because we had some tech difficulties and

I think this is gonna be night and day
difference but what what kinds of things

did you see when you were editing that
episode or anything that you noticed

CJ Avilla: So I have edited hundreds
of my own videos before and I've edited

probably like 10 podcast episodes
before and I am always uncomfortable at

seeing myself but seeing the transcript
of my spoken word was like even more

uncomfortable because it's like oh that
is actually the words that I said and

Colin Loretz: you what do we
use what do we use for that?

CJ Avilla: Right Okay Yeah So we were
the first pass we did in Descript.

So Descript if you haven't seen it go
check it out This is we'll have a link

in the show notes which will be a super
special link that hopefully will increase

our chances of getting access to the
new descript storyboard but the descript

is this tool that was originally built
I guess for editing audio and The way

that it works is you kind of drop in an
audio or video file It will transcribe

what was said and then allow you to edit
as if you're editing a word document

And so like as you're going through
you can see all of the ums and U's and

you really really start to notice the
filler words mine in particular is so

like I be so and also like I use like
a lot so in fact there we go right

Colin Loretz: Yeah I've noticed that
even on zoom calls with with at work

I will sometimes end sentences with so
and I think that's like a nervous tick

or something and you know and I I'm
not completely against filler words I

think we'll notice them I there's some
people who like to keep them in I think

it's also there's The kind of people
who listen to podcasts and remove all

spaces and on 2X speed And it's like you
kind of lose the storytelling element

of and like delivery when you do that
I think like overcast will just let you

listen to podcasts at like next Breaking
speeds Right And I'm not trying to be

like productive when I'm listening to
podcast I'm trying to relax but I think

it's a it depends right Like you wouldn't
wanna edit out all the filler words if

it was like a story or it depends Right
If it's an audible and you're listening

to ums and OS like that would probably be
really annoying but You know right there

I think we're just as humans You you you
said a few things like we all have filler

words and I think we're uncomfortable
listening and watching ourselves and

you've done a lot of this I don't think
it gets easier You just do it right

You it's just fact of life And it's
kind of like getting on stage I think

a lot of people think that when you
do that You eventually just feel fine

but I I feel just as nervous getting
on stage as I did the first day that I

did it You have a different experience
and tools to to handle it I think

CJ Avilla: Right Yeah You start to be
able to have different mechanisms to

regulate your anxiety around what people
think about you And you start to realize

that people are thinking more about
themselves than what they're thinking

about you And so maybe it allows you
to relax ever so slightly so we we we

use D script Basically I dropped it in
there and then I There's a tool that lets

you auto remove ums and U So I did that
first and maybe you can tell when you're

listening back to episode one that it's a
little choppy maybe that's was because of

that kind of just like find and replace
then I applied a filter that comes from

descript called studio sound and this
is a tool that will upload all the audio

and then run some machine learning stuff
inside of descripts I don't know they're

inside of their platform that will try
to improve the audio quality which is

just mind blowing Like if there's echo in
your room or if it doesn't sound you know

rich or chunky enough like inside of the
Zencaster in this UI we can actually see

the wave forms of our voices And they're
a little bit different right My mic is

gonna be set up a little bit differently
than Colin's Mike And as we're talking

Those waveforms can be sort of normalized
using machine learning and they can also

remove background sounds and stuff So
that I think was pretty powerful And

listening back to the before and after
of just the studio sound application was

pretty wild I did apply and play with
a couple different filters but I think

that was the main The main one And then
I exported it from descript into garage

band because I couldn't figure out how to
add like nice intro music that faded in

and nice intro music that faded out And
I know how to deal with garage band And

so that's where I did so yeah found some
creative commons open free Music that

you don't have to pay for or whatever
drop that in the beginning drop it in

the end And then kind of that's where we
landed with with episode one obviously

I think we'll iterate and improve but

Colin Loretz: Absolutely Yeah Yeah I
mean like I think like anything the first

pancake right Episode one we kind of
recorded it Assuming we were gonna throw

it away We're gonna release it You're
listening to episode two now So this is

from the future Hopefully you've already
listened to episode one I think we're just

gonna get better about content you know
keeping the conversation tight episode one

was also like a rambling of our histories
So enjoy that if you want a little bit of

a a down memory land of MySpace and and
all that fun stuff but Yeah I'm excited

that we're doing this and it's only gonna
get better and maybe we'll do like a deep

dive audio episode in the future where we
can really talk about the tools and the

gear that we're using some of it you know
you don't need to have but I think we've

kind of accumulated it over the years of
doing teaching and and all that kind of

stuff So we've we've got that on hand but
let's let's dive into this stack overflow

CJ Avilla: Let's do it there's a
bunch of stuff that was surprising

a little bit Some of it was sad Some
of it was hilarious And so maybe we

should start with things we'll go You
wanna ping pong We'll go back and forth

And you wanna talk about some of the
things that you thought were surprising

Colin Loretz: Yeah So before we do that
I'm just gonna read the kind of headline

for this So if you haven't seen this
we'll put a sh a link in the show notes

but they in may of 2022 they surveyed
over 70,000 developers to kind of get a

sense of how they learn how they level
up which tools they use and what they

want And I think this is More interesting
than the like what do you do How much

do you get paid It's the when you're not
working how do you learn or how do you

learn on the job How do you find things
A lot of the meta work that I think is

newer To companies with remote work or
hybrid work Right Because sometimes it's

like you just talk to your neighbor and
ask them a question And now you got slack

and notion and JIRA and confluence all
these different tools which we've always

had but what is it changing And I think
the fact that this was in may of 20, 22

is also important just to note as like a
marker for history because these surveys

are gonna come out every year and the the
results are gonna change So yeah so it's

kind of just level setting there but did
anything was there anything like that kind

of hit you as either super surprising or
maybe even not surprising Like you're like

yeah of course developers this this sense

CJ Avilla: So obviously as someone who
makes a lot of video content both for my

own YouTube channel and also the Stripe
developers channel one of the first

sections I jumped to is how people are
learning how to code And this is a this

is the part that is kind of the data point
that allows me to go to my my leadership

and my bosses and say like look people
are actually you know watching videos

on the internet and in order to learn
how to do technical things Definitely

yeah it definitely helps like quantify
that And so A lot of people said they

are doing online learning to learn how
to code this was like a combination of

a bunch of different stuff between blogs
and articles and video And so around 70%

said that they're using online resources
obviously and then video specifically

came in around 59% of respondents I think
part of that is learning styles Like some

people just learn better through written
content Other people are gonna learn

better through video and or you know this
like these kind of interactive courses

where you can kind of like run some code
see the output and then try to improve

Something that I thought sort of stood out
a little bit is in the survey it allows

you to sort of break down by cohort age
or like kind of like look at a question

by age and for a video in particular the
the younger the developer is the more

likely they are to use video as a as as
a resource to learn how to code and the

older you are the less likely you are to
watch video And so what My read on that

is that especially the newer generation
of devs are kind of finding this online

content whether it's free code camp
the Odin project ACA like all of these

different YouTube channels traverse media
there's just massive massive YouTube

channels now that are teaching people how
to code And I think that's become you know

a really core and important resource So

Colin Loretz: I think the on that same
front they had what kind of resources

you used to learn how to code And they
mentioned technical documentation and

stack overflow as some of the top two And
I do wonder like I've only to be honest

recently been able to really be able to
learn from docs I think that when you're

learning to code docs are not always the
best way to learn how to code because

you need to see somebody use it right
Like when it says put run this command

Where am I running this What supposed to
do Where am I supposed to see and videos

give you that And you know I I follow some
Instagrammers I'm not on TikTok but I see

the tos that leak into Instagram And it's
interesting to see like the coding and

programming like Instagram tos because
they're super short So you're not going to

really teach anything but they're almost
like a let's get this person interested in

a thing to go to my YouTube channel to go
watch the full video right Or to go watch

my Twitch stream where I'm gonna build
my to-do app and react or whatever that

might be and so I do think like TikTok
and Instagram probably has something to do

with that video piece But you know again I
I don't know that these boot camps and you

know in some cases when you're learning
how to code how do you learn how to learn

from docs a big part of it especially If
you're learning Ruby sometimes you find

just like the pure Ruby docs and that's
like a terrifying website to end land

on If you don't know you're looking at

CJ Avilla: Yeah I think when you know
as you build experience when you land on

a readme for an open source project or
whatever and you see the a bash command

that says you know you should at this
point you should use gem install whatever

We as Rubus who've been doing this for 10
years or whatever we're comfortable And

we can like look at that and be like okay
Yeah here's how I this is how I install

it And then you might see a couple of
lines of code that are like okay here's

how you initialize the client in passing
your API key and then make a make an API

call but as someone who's brand brand new
who's never interacted with an API before

I Video is an incredibly powerful way to
both inspire them but also give them the

confidence that they too can absolutely
do this by seeing someone else perform

exactly the same steps that they need to
perform Especially if it's like in a tool

that's familiar to them And so yeah as
we talk about these other tools something

that has definitely come up in the
comments for me is like people will say

why aren't you using vs code Why are you
doing this Like inside of your terminal or

whatever And it's because they literally
want the IDE to match what they're seeing

And in some cases even like the theme
right They want the theme to look the

same They want like the colors to look
the same They want all the output to be

exactly the same which feels comfortable
and is yeah Confidence inspiring And We're

Colin Loretz: all waiting for that We're
waiting for that CJ vs code theme to

come out you it's We you gotta have the
links to your merch and your your vs gosh

CJ Avilla: we I have a theme and I think
we're gonna open source It It's the one

we use for the strip developer YouTube
channel it when we're in vs code but

Colin Loretz: Yeah I mean you'd be
surprised I mean the number of people

when I when I like I said like those
Instagrams and YouTubes people the biggest

questions like what theme are you using
Or like if I have an auto completer or

something it's like oh how did you do
that It's the extensions and the themes

and stuff like that yeah I mean when I we
taught a bootcamp here at our co-working

space and we used to do everything live
and we found that you know in like the

TAs and myself were being asked the same
questions over and over again And so

instead we inverted it almost like Khan
academy where we recorded the content so

that they could watch it at home And then
the in person sessions were the office

hours So that way they could watch it
they could stop it they could rewind it

they could watch it faster They can skip
to the part that they got stuck on And

they can just do that over and over again
without feeling like They don't have

to worry about like oh am I not smart
enough Cuz I'm asking a question that no

one else in the class is asking You can
just get through and then I think I've

done this myself Like I'll try to do it
without the video Right Let me see if I

really understand this and then okay I
didn't get far enough I need to like go

back and watch it again Do it again Maybe
I'll do another sample app and see if I

can do it without it And you know that
YouTube channel that I made Surprisingly

got picked up by just people learning
rails and I think there was like a video

series that was like one of there was like
13 videos And I think somehow there's the

13th video is not there And all of the
other videos people are so upset They're

like where's the last video And like

project Like video is pretty compelling
to me It obviously takes a lot of work to

produce those things as you know but I do
think that people are finding it really

interesting I think on the bottom of this
list I see things like programming games

and podcasts as being on the lower end
of that you know we're not teaching you

how to code on this podcast So I don't
think that speaks to anything here but

I think there's been that dream that
we're gonna have these games like code

combat and and some of like Disney things
that are coming out That help you learn

through gaming which maybe that's just
early and maybe we're gonna see that

stuff get better over time Cuz I think
some of those games can be really fun

for kids to get into it Even if it's
maybe you're not learning how to code but

you're starting to get that programmer's
mindset and the problem solving mindset

CJ Avilla: Yeah So funny enough the
there's a book that's called something

like learned a program with Minecraft
And so I sat down with the kids last

weekend and we set up a Minecraft server
and the whole goal was like let's connect

to the Minecraft server with Python and
it took like an hour to get it just set

up You have to like install all these
like crazy packages to get it even like

to run the right version of the right
server And then once that's up and running

there's several different like Python
libraries that interact with different

versions of Minecraft So there's like
you know the Java edition or the the

raspberry pie edition And when I by the
time I finally got it set up they were

exhausted They were like we don't even
care anymore We're just gonna like go play

Roblox or some other game I'm like okay

Colin Loretz: Well like Minecraft was
not designed for that Right People hacked

Minecraft but it whether wasn't designed
to teach programming it'd be interesting

to have a game with that as like the core
principle Right Like it's just designed

to be easy to connect to in any language
like the APIs maybe it's even literally

a web API or something it'd be kind
of or like you know like Twilio right

It's like how do we connect to a game
without knowing all the underlying stuff

Just like we connect to a bank through
Stripe without having to know how all

that stuff works I think be interesting

CJ Avilla: Totally All right Should we
move Let's move on from learning how to

code I know you had a bunch of stuff about
professional devs What was surprising

to you about how yeah How people are

Colin Loretz: Yeah I I couldn't find what
they define as professional developer

Maybe we'll find that as we talk but 88%
of professional developers code outside

of work with 73% of them coding as a hobby
So I think that means that some of them

are doing work like on the side or maybe
they're making like a theme for Shopify

as like a little side hustle but a lot of
people just do it as a hobby And I think

this does parlay into the how do you learn
you know some people like to geek out with

like I'm gonna go stand up Kubernetes this
weekend just for fun Right And then maybe

they're not using it at work and I think
that probably also goes into this question

that I really love that they asked which
is like what do you work with versus what

do you want to work with you might not
get to work with the new thing at work

And so people are playing with them on
the side You know as you get to become

more senior it looks like senior devs
have more and more influence on what tools

and maybe even purchases that they're
gonna make in their companies So you

know some of those hobbies end up turning
into influence on the tech product or

you know or tech stack of of the company

CJ Avilla: Absolutely Yeah I think our
I don't know if this happens to you but

I've been hit up on LinkedIn all the time
with people just kind like sales people

cold emailing and trying to pitch their
enterprise software product or whatever

Do you get these these like cold emails

Colin Loretz: Yeah When I was at panty
drop it was a lot more it was like every

CRM and like enterprise I forgot what
they're called anymore The the whole

backend for logistics and shipping and
all that stuff It was like almost daily

a little bit less so now but yeah I mean
they know that senior devs have some

influence and so if you can you know
gain I would say like we'll we'll talk

about Stripe for a second Like it's like
when people look at the docs for Stripe

versus someone another payment gateway
like a lot of devs are gonna be like we

wanna go with that one Because of what
that experience is like or maybe they

have a really pleasant experience using
it on the side and they built their own

side project with it And so now when it's
like Hey we need a payment provider at

work Like oh we already know how to use
this one And you know we there's not a

big risk in us choosing that how much do
you code outside of work I think that's a

CJ Avilla: Okay Yeah That's an interesting
question Also there's like this meme going

around right I think that it's something
like if you were a lawyer no one would

come to you and be like you should do
a bunch of law outside of work you know

like spend your weekends like writing like

Colin Loretz: contracts

CJ Avilla: contract Yeah Whatever
writing contract like no lawyer

is gonna do that Right And so
we're in a weird industry I feel

Colin Loretz: The other one I
saw was like what do you do with

your money or something like that

CJ Avilla: yeah I have also seen it
done like with like medicine like

as a doctor you're not like spending
your weekends like going around

and trying to find people to fix

Colin Loretz: or but all your friends
are asking you questions anyway So I

to escape that

CJ Avilla: Yeah but yeah I also have
encountered lots of devs in my career

who are just like I'm just here to get
a paycheck and you know To go home and

live my life outside of the computer and
outside of my phone and outside of the

internet And I've also met a lot of other
people And I think maybe both you and I

probably fit into this camp which is more
like we truly genuinely love this stuff

And so we I don't know like maybe yeah
I'm putting words in your mouth but I I

personally really really enjoy building
things and experimenting and it to me

it feels a lot some artistic or creative
outlet where you can build and write

code that solves some problem or build
and write code that is you know creating

some creative some creative output So
I think I absolutely code outside of

work It waxes and wanes for sure But
depending on the year you can probably

go look at the GitHub squares but like
yeah if if we were to add up all the time

outside of work I think You know it's
probably more than people would say is

healthy but it's definitely definitely
something that I enjoy doing especially

when I kind of find or start working
on a project that I'm really really

interested in So if I've if I'm building
a you know like a side project or if I'm

building a side hustle or whatever and
I get really really into it then I can

easily sink like 20 hours on a weekend
into something Also come out on the

other end feeling like really energized
And like I had a ton of fun so I don't

Colin Loretz: I think this is the tricky
one And that's probably where that meme

is coming from too is though I think that
some people believe like that It's not

a good sign That like if a recruiter's
expecting that you spend your weekends

building side projects or Like cuz a
lot of people don't have the time or

the energy Right They might not have the
ability to do this and that doesn't make

you a bad programmer I I would say like
for me I actually noticed this when I

was reading the survey like in my current
job I don't always Code every single day

like they'll definitely be meeting heavy
days and then I'll have my kind of flow

productive days But like at the end of
the day I cannot code like right now Like

I'm just in a phase right now And maybe
this is just more of like this season

is not the season for side projects and
side coding but it's like by the time

the day is over I am spent I need to get
away from a screen I need to go out and

do stuff That way I can come back and do
it again tomorrow And it doesn't and I'm

not feeling like burnt out by any means
It's just I know that if I also went home

and sat in front of a screen again and
did some more code I would get burnt out

And so I'm okay with that right now I'm
like trying to like just say I don't need

I have all these ideas I've got lots of
things right We all do but they don't

need to be done right now and I'm okay
Giving that energy to to my job right now

But when I was you know more like when
I was running the co-working space I was

tinkering with you know all sorts of APIs
for Google calendars and door locks and

stuff because it was like a tool And for
me it's kind of like DIY like working

around the house or whatever It's like
I have a hammer that I know how to use

and this can be good or bad Right It's
like okay now everything is gonna be a

code solution but you you don't have to
go out and look An app when you can maybe

like wire together some APIs and things
And that can be really fun I think for me

playing with APIs is the most fun but I
do think like you said like I'm a lawyer

I'm not gonna be writing contracts for
you know acquisitions on the weekend So

why do I expect this from from a software
developer And I think you know if you're

trying to learn It is a great way to learn
if you're trying to level up I think they

like I said in this survey like how are
people up leveling going literally from

levels to levels and increasing their
salaries Like does that require this on

the side Or is there a way to carve this
out at work so that you're doing your

learning at work I know Like at orbit if
someone has a goal of learning something

the engineering manager's like put it on
your calendar don't make it a side project

put it on the table If it's reading an
hour in the morning to start your day

whatever it looks like like that's good
cuz it's gonna make you better So I think

you know it's important to make sure
that people don't think that they have

to like be always on a hundred percent
programmer to make it in this industry

CJ Avilla: Yeah I that is a great point
And yeah I I've definitely been in phases

where after work there's I cannot write
another line of code I do not wanna see

it And I've also had phases where it's
like Work for eight or nine hours writing

code go have dinner and then come back and
write eight or nine more hours of code for

like three months straight you know like
building all these little side hustles

inside projects and doing contracts and
wherever yeah like just really getting

getting into flow and loving it but yeah
it I think like you said yeah you'll

go through seasons and it's not a hard
requirement to be good I also sometimes

when I think about it too I think like
obviously at the end of those second

shift like eight hour sessions I would
be hitting bugs where I'm like what is

going on here And it would be something
so so trivial and then you just go to

sleep you wake up You're like okay I was
obviously like way burnt out and like

well beyond the not the baller curve
but whatever the curve is that you need

Colin Loretz: sleep

CJ Avilla: Yeah exactly so yeah that can
be that can be bad too but I don't know

I think oh right Coming back to this like
concept of the 10,000 hours or whatever

right Like in order to become an expert
you kind of like gotta put in the gotta

put in the hours And so for some people
they Want to front load that and like

learn as much as they can early early in
their career and then start to smooth it

out for other peoples It it's more of a
you know a marathon where you wanna make

a career outta this and you know you're
gonna be in this for 15 20 years And so

you can kind of pace it out this kind of
brings us to another part of the survey

that I thought was pretty interesting And
that is the like years of coding question

where it's like how many years have you
been Writing code and why I think this

is interesting is cuz I wonder like are
people okay so first of all if you look

at the graph it peaks out at about 30% of
the people responding have between five

and nine years of experience 20% with
one to four and then around 20% with 10

to 10 to 14 And so I'm like okay people
are peaking around Like nine years right

and then what are they doing after that
Right If you like people learn to code

they put in all this effort to learn how
to code online or whatever through books

and then they only spend nine years doing
it Whereas maybe going back to the lawyer

analogy right If you become a lawyer you
might be a lawyer for like 60 years or I

don't know not 60 40 years And then retire

Colin Loretz: But you also had to do
all your learning front loaded like

in a very extreme way Right It's

CJ Avilla: True Yeah

Colin Loretz: very extreme and very
expensive My brother went to law school

and I think he's got some regrets
when he looks at like programming

CJ Avilla: Oh really interesting

Colin Loretz: I won't speak for him
Maybe we'll have him on one day to talk

about the difference between programming
and lawyers Since that's not a an area

I thought that we would compare to but
it's yeah there's Again I think go and

look at the survey and kind of interpret
it and kind of put yourself in it If you

didn't participate in the survey like
just look at it see if it kind of matches

what you expect reality to look like or
if there's some surprises for yourself

Cuz I think you definitely found some
of the more fun things I think when we

start getting into programming languages
you mentioned like how far down the

list some Most commonly used programming
languages are JavaScript is pretty much

at the top of the list and I loved that
Ruby was like 50% loved and 50% dreaded

CJ Avilla: yeah so well we have to frame
it like loved and dreaded So yeah in

the survey I don't actually remember
how they asked these questions Do you

Colin Loretz: I don't either but because
I think that might have changed how people

interpret it but like cuz I love how
they're like this one is the most there's

I think there was a programming tool that
was like the most highest paying but it

was also the most dreaded I think it chef
was the highest paying but most dreaded

tool so clearly like they're trying to
get a sense of like what do people like

to work with versus what do Have to work
with and what do they dread I'm gonna

actually it up in another window here

CJ Avilla: It's also super interesting
to see how much things pay right Because

if you look at tech stacks the you know
rails is pretty far down the list in terms

of the tech stacks that people prefer But
then when you look at the highest paying

tech stacks rails is number two So that's
like I don't know It's I think that's

pretty interesting especially depending
on what you're trying to optimize for So

Colin Loretz: well without looking at
it what would you have guessed the high

the most loved language would've been

CJ Avilla: the most loved language
I would've guessed JavaScript Y

Colin Loretz: And would you have been
surprised to hear rust as the answer

CJ Avilla: yes

Colin Loretz: Because how many people
are even using rust like that guess is

the bigger part of this Like it does
have the number of responses for each

of these So like for example type script
had 18,000 responses whereas rust only

had 5,746 So I don't know if there's a
way to see this This is by percentage

of responses I think but even like rust
Elixer closure type script Julia like we

still haven't hit I guess we got a little
bit of JavaScript in there Python comes

in at 67% loved versus 32% dreaded but
again Ruby is literally down in the bottom

here with the middle 50 50 and then on
the very bottom we got Matlab and Cobal.

CJ Avilla: So yeah like from my
experience which is limited I've done

like hello world and rust and hello world
plus a little bit with a Elixer and I

definitely prefer to Elixer over rust
And so part of me is wondering like okay

nobody has written well very very few
people have written every single one of

these languages Number one number two
like the communities are probably going

to have different resources So this this
Only really represents those developers

who are on stack overflow engaged on
stack overflow And so there's a chance

that there's languages on here that are
misrepresented because they're much easier

to use and maybe you don't end up going
to stack overflow for answers and so

Colin Loretz: We're over indexing on
why why you would go to stack overflow

CJ Avilla: Well I think okay So part of me
thinks that stack overflow plays obviously

it plays a very very important role in all
programming right You that's where you're

gonna go when you have your questions But
I also know that stack overflow is built

with.net and early in my career as a.net
dev When stack overflow is just starting

out I remember using it heavily and there
being a lot of C sharp and.net question

and answer And so part of me wonders
is the.net representation of like the

answers here skewed a little bit because
more.net devs are using stack overflow

or or is this yeah like a pretty pure

Colin Loretz: I I mean I would even say
that like for ides like I would say the

one of the more surprising things is how
fast visual studio code has like rocketed

to like the most used tool Neo VM was
the highest by 1% more but visual studio

code like who would've thought like I use
visual studio forever go but let Microsoft

would be the one to release the IDE that
everyone on you know is using on the Mac

and on the PC And you know obviously they
bought GitHub as well which gave them

Adam which looked very similar And I think
they had kind of absorbed that But it

is fun to kind of see all the different
tools there It's just it's so interesting

to think about like what what bias might
exist in this They do have a methodology

section and don't know if they go into
the the stack overflow bias here at all

but you know it's it's like if you hang
out in places where people like to geek

out about rusts like of course Russ is
gonna be the top one but it's similar to

when we talk about you mentioned highest
paying Technologies like we see what we we

are we're a rails shop at orbit and some
PE like I see a lot of job openings for

rails but then you hear people saying like
rails Dying rails is old Rails is slow

Like you hear all these things and it's
also productive It's also like there's

all these other things that people don't
write Those like thought leadership pieces

about because just they're busy writing
code and being productive I guess But

CJ Avilla: Yeah Yeah I think one of the
things so just yesterday I was watching

some of the talks from jams stack comp
from 2021 and the the creator of spelt

rich Harris right yeah Rich Harris the
creators felt was talking about these

new this new type of like front end jams
stack application that's felt sort of

embodies And that is something that can
pass server rendered HTML Or it can render

on the client or it can be like partially
rendered on the client And there's all

these like really really interesting
technologies that are happening in the

JAMstack ecosystem And with front end
frameworks in general with like next and

server side rendering and spelt kit and
remix and all of these different tools on

the front end And he was kind of bagging
on rails a little bit saying like oh hot

wire Has X Y and Z issues And like if you
look on GitHub and he was able to point

out like here is some Jan that you find
on GitHub because GitHub is built with

rails and using hot wire that you would
not have if you were to build like this

high fidelity jams stack app basically
And so part of me number one wonders

like like obviously his felt is pretty
high on the list of web frameworks but

also Are people saying that rails is
dead because it's falling behind in terms

of the trends that are happening on the
front end but then I also question like

like remix are coming out where a lot
of your tooling is server side rendered

HTML going back to the web browser basics
and really kind of embracing like all of

the standard HTTP stuff Like okay Yeah
You put a form and you have an action

in the form which specifies the route
to which you're gonna send your post

request And like that's just gonna use
the names on your inputs and pass those

back to the server and use kind of like
all the things that we would've used

Colin Loretz: in rails

CJ Avilla: Exactly It's a giant cycle Yeah
And so I am kind of curious to see how

that waxes in wanes over time Obviously
it doesn't feel as sexy right Like the

using remix Is is I'm I'm so so glad that
remix is kind of like making it cool again

to use standard web fundamentals because
it wasn't sexy to just be like okay

this is a boring app That's just written
with HTML and has like these server

rendered routes that are just gonna spit
back HTML or put stuff in the database

or pull things outta the database So

Colin Loretz: Yeah they didn't get into
it in the survey but I think like the

next level is even just standard web
components Like I got exposed to those

through Shopify and it's like I don't have
to include any JavaScript Right I mean

I have access to whatever is built into
the browser I don't have to use react I

don't have to worry about what this is
This the thing that I'm in Right All this

kinds of things are really interesting and
I haven't played with spelt but what you

just talked about is making me want to go
play with spelt a little bit see how that

works Cuz I have also haven't touched hot
wire or or any of those things in rails

yet but I know we use some of that at
orbit and it's been interesting to see

like how much of this is us geeking out
on tools and how much of it is like how

us ship stuff Better faster and maintain
it all of that Like how easy is it to

onboard a new member which actually I
think there was a conversation about that

in here which is just like how easy is it
to find answers to things How easy what's

like the Perceived time to onboard And
a lot of people are like yeah if it it

always takes longer than than the company
thinks it's gonna take for me to onboard

Which I think is important Like if you're
joining a new team and you feel like you

don't understand what's going on like
Existing code bases are hard your team

may or may not have a good onboarding
flow It's not necessarily your fault

give the feedback and maybe even use
the survey to prove that that's the

case for most people And it's not you

CJ Avilla: when you when you onboarded
at orbit how long did it take Like how

long did it take and how long did you
were you sort of told like okay we've

allotted two months for you to get
up to speed or like two weeks for you

to be like shipping your first stuff
or whatever What was that experience

Colin Loretz: I was joining kind of at
like transitional time So they were trying

to figure that out and I think you know
most teams it's probably likely The case

when most people joined anything they're
like oh we're changing some stuff you

know and there when I first joined I
found a document that was like a 30, 60,

90 plan never really had to follow that
though Cause that kind of stopped being

adopted What was more interesting to me
was like once I had all my accounts and

had access to everything it was just like
world building in my head Like I gotta

build up what do we use When do we use
it How does this code work becomes what

is important for me to know to do the
ticket That is my first ticket you know

was this first ticket even designed to be
an onboarding ticket or was it just like

thrown in the deep end type of thing And
like I was actually thinking about this

the other day because I was working on
a piece of code that when I first joined

I was like I do not even understand what
this why this is even in here Like what is

it doing Why is it so complicated And now
it's I'm refactoring that because I really

understand what it's doing And I know that
like actually I think it was like Rubo

cops specifically said this thing is too
complicated Now you can't commit And I was

like all right we're gonna fix it because
I knew it was complicated when I joined

I I didn't understand it then So like is
every new engineer gonna look at this and

be like I don't know how to coat because I
don't understand this thing I was like no

it's it was written in a way that could be
made better it had to do with devise and

Omni off and all that fun stuff but like
it is really fun when you I don't know if

you've felt this but There's almost like
a light switch moment where you've just

been in a code base for a certain amount
of time And all of a sudden it's like

oh I understand where things are where
how they work whereas like a few days

ago it might have been like you were in
another country not speaking the language

CJ Avilla: Yeah I think it definitely
depends on the size of the code base the

like familiarity with the language Right
Like I think when I started at when I

started at my VR I didn't know any Python
And we were building a Jengo app with

an angular front end I never worked with
angular and I never worked with Python

And so it was like okay you have to learn
this giant code base that O at the at the

time I think it had over a million lines
of code You also have to learn Python You

also have to learn angular and like the
business and the people and the processes

and the whatever And While I was fixing
bugs probably in the first couple weeks

I definitely was not like productive in
terms of adding like massive features

or being able to pull my own weight for
three to six months And this is something

that we tell people that join our team
at strip too is like yeah like when

you join we expect the bandwidth of the
team to go down Like there's going to

be negative Based on you joining because
we all need to work together as a team

to bring you up to speed and like answer
any question that you have and make

sure that you feel fully supported and
enabled so that you can get off on a good

foot so yeah I think if you're joining
a new team or if you're just starting

out as a junior dev like don't feel bad
if you're not you know crushing it in

your first couple weeks like I would say

Colin Loretz: Yeah well and like an
onboarding document is only gonna get

you so prepared right It's shadowing you
know the teammates it's asking questions

It which I think you know brings up some
of the other questions around remote A

lot of people surveyed here Again this is
gonna be skewed based on stack overflow

but 85% of organizations are at least
partially remote which I think changes a

lot of this stuff I think the other one
that I wrote down that which I thought

was key to stack overflow was that more
than 60% of the developers surveyed and

I I collapsed a bunch of the options It
was basically the 30 to 120 minutes a day

spent looking for answers Right So that
means that at a minimum I would say more

the most of the people we're spending
at least an hour So if you have an eight

hour Workday one hour is chalked up to
just looking for an answer to something

you might have a meeting you might have
a standup So like already you're starting

to see the day get whittled away you know
and when I've talked to my engineering

manager we we kind of talked about like I
used to be really productive at nighttime

and I would get all I would like Do my
meetings during the day kind of slack off

during the day maybe take some long lunch
do some errands And because I'm remote

I'm gonna work at night and I get so much
done at night Right And we really had

to think like okay why can't we get work
done during the day Like we need to fix

this and you learn a little bit of like
the remote work hygiene of like setting

statuses and turning off alert alerts and
putting on headphones and all that kind of

stuff so that you can just get into your
state cuz I would prefer to not have to

work at Right And I've figured out ways
of having maybe like no meeting days or

no meeting afternoons whatever that looks
like So that that's flow time and making

sure that like I know that some of that
time's still gonna be spent reading docs

looking for answers maybe even talking to
the team but that you know again you're

not going to be writing code for eight
hours a day Like it's just impossible

CJ Avilla: Yep Totally Totally Yeah It's
it's unrealistic too to believe that

you can write code for eight hours a day
and it come out in any valuable state

like without it being yeah something
that takes a long time to parse or

get merged or whatever especially like
if you're collaborating and you need

to like work through PRs whatever.

There was one last thing that I wanted
to like one last question on here that

I thought was super surprising And then
I think we could wrap it up hugging face

transformers was the number one most loved
library And I before reading the survey

and like Googling this I had never heard

Colin Loretz: of this

CJ Avilla: So I was like what the what
is hugging face transformers and so

what I gather from the website hugging
face.co Is that it is build the AI

community building the future So it's
like a community of models and machine

learning tools for building some like
AI stuff but I don't know Had you heard

Colin Loretz: tell you can tell
that we do not do this stuff

CJ Avilla: we try to

Colin Loretz: explain it I had not heard
of it And I did Google it as well Cuz it

stuck out in the list What I love about
this is that it brings some of the fun

and joy of like what we used to see in
the early days of Ruby to AI right This

idea like I don't know the origin of why
it's called hugging face I'm sure there

is one We'll have to look for it if you
know about this and you're listening

out there we'd love to talk more about
this Cause this is like a whole area of

the internet and programming that I know
nothing about Right And I know models and

machine learning and AI are getting really
popular You have people sharing all these

like Dolly generated photos and things
I don't know if this has anything to do

with that if we don't even know what we're
talking about but it does look like it's

transformers for pie torch TensorFlow and
jacks So those are all three things I've

never used before but I love the fun to
it There's another link that I'll post

in the show notes that I loved which is
just like why is the internet not fun

and weird anymore kind of becoming like
These like Facebook's starting to look

like Instagram and Instagram's looking
like this other thing And everything's

just becoming like either everything
looks like bootstrap and tailwind and

not like the old geo citys mice face like
explore blink you know all that kind of

fun stuff So how do we make the internet
fun and weird again again there might be

a reason why this is called I don't know
if you found it why this is called what

it's called but it looks like it might
be something we might have to play with

CJ Avilla: Yeah I did not figure out what
it's called right before we recorded this

podcast though I hosted a Twitter space
with Mike by Foco who is another developer

advocate at Stripe and he is working on
this thing called speech writer.ai Which

is a tool That'll let you write like best
man speeches or inauguration speeches or

things like this where it's using open
AI which is another tool that uses or

that has like G P T three is some other
model And so there's like some API you

basically like ask a questions and then it
will do some fancy machine learning thing

and then spit back some answers But yeah
hugging face transforms looks Like it's

related in some way so we'll have Yeah

Colin Loretz: We'll we'll have to
dig into that one and come back

to it in the future but awesome

CJ Avilla: Yep

Colin Loretz: So yeah that's the 2022
Stack Overflow developer survey definitely

take a look at it We'll put a link
in the show notes if there's anything

that you wanna see us talk about in
future episodes definitely hit us up

on Twitter my Twitter is @colinloretz.

We'll put it in the show
notes And what is yours CJ?

CJ Avilla: Mine's at C J underscore dev
and yeah Thanks so much for listening

Really appreciate your time and attention

Colin Loretz: All right
we'll see you next week