Travel Tech/Gear and Learning Game Dev

Colin: Hey CJ, we're back.

Welcome to Build Learn.

How was how was Italy?

CJ: Oh my gosh, Italy was amazing.

It was my first time traveling in
Europe, and we very light, and we

had the four of my crew, so My
kids and my spouse, but also we went

with my parents and also a couple of
friends that we like to travel with.

So it was like eight of us and we
did six cities in 10 days tons and

tons of like tours and activities
and everything was like insanely jam

packed with the goal of just kind
of sampling and getting a feel for.

different parts of Italy and,
and also just like a first

time Europe travel experience.

So we tried lots of different,
lots of different things.

We stayed in hotels, we stayed in
Airbnbs, we like did the train,

we did boating around Venice.

We did some car stuff and It was amazing.

It was so good to just like disconnect
and eat some amazing food and see

some really, really cool old things
and get the kids starting to speak

a little bit of Italian, just like
practicing, experiencing other cultures.

And yeah, it was awesome.

It was awesome.

But yeah, there, there was like a lot of
interesting things that I found convenient

tech wise that I did not realize.

And I think that in hindsight, I probably
would have traveled much sooner had

I known how easy it is to travel now.

Colin: Mm hmm.

CJ: We went, there was Apple Pay.

So you could just like
tap your phone anywhere.

You don't, like, we got Euros
and we were giving people tips

with like Euros and we used it.

We had to use it for a couple of
bathrooms, like public bathrooms.

But other than that,
like nothing was cash.

Everything was just like, you know.

You know, double click the side of
your phone and pay for whatever it

was, whether it's like a breakfast
or getting on the bus or you know we

went to, I don't know, do you know
Warhammer figurine, like the minifig.

Okay.

So there was like the, the, the like
first Warhammer store ever in Rome.

And we went in there and Grayson picked
out a bunch of like paints that he wanted

to do and some new glues and stuff.

And so You just like strolling
down the street, you pop into some

shop and like, you know, you're
able to Apple pay with everything.

So that was awesome.

That was awesome.

Colin: It's not Rome, but next
time you guys are in Reno, there

is a Warhammer store at Summit.

CJ: Whoa.

Nice.

Colin: it's been there for a long time.

I'm always surprised that we're able to
support a store that niche, but very cool.

Yeah, Apple Pay, huge I mean, Europe and
Canada have always been ahead of us in

terms of like, you know chip and pin and
all that stuff came from those places

where it was like, it's foreign to even
give someone a card and they disappear

with it and they come back with it.

It's like, no one, the waiter's
like, what are you doing?

Give me your card.

Like just tap this thing and be done.

And then obviously like tipping
culture is very different too.

It's nice to have euros and things
for tips for like service things that.

You know, probably still are not
necessarily like expected because

people are getting paid, but they
should get paid without tips.

But and they have social, you know,
social safety net and all that stuff

with insurance and all this other stuff.

But it's, you know, appreciated
if someone's, you know, taking

your bags or, you know, doing
something for you on a tour.

And then yeah, you found the bathrooms
that do require coins, which I mean,

there are a lot of places that I wish we
had more bathrooms that you could use.

And I think because our bathrooms are
free and they're usually destroyed,

like they see there aren't available
to the public or they're just not

created or not put out into the world.

And then there's no like revenue
for taking care of them either.

And yeah, they're living in
the future over in Europe.

CJ: Yeah.

There was a lot of things where it
definitely felt like business ideas.

Okay.

So here's like two business ideas that
I came away with that are like I don't

know, probably European only one is yeah.

Paid bathroom.

And the other one was a paid elevator.

So we went to this town on the, on
the coast called Sorrento, and it's

like all these little villages are
situated on these like massive cliffs.

So the way that I sort of thought
about it is like very much like

Big Sur, like you're driving down
highway one on the west coast of

California, and there's little, those
little towns where you'll see like

a house on like this massive cliff.

And so there was an elevator
where you had to pay like a euro

20 or something to go one way it
would take you down to the beach.

And I was like, Oh my gosh,
like what a great business idea.

You know, you're just like set
up an elevator with apple pay

like on one of these like crazy
cliff sides in California.

So totally impractical, probably
really hard to set up, but

Colin: I have to wonder how much
of that is, I mean, they talk

about this with tolls and stuff is
that it changes people's behavior.

And so like for someone who
needs it, one, it's not great.

There probably is like a, if you're,
I have a disability, you probably

get to skip the fee or something.

I bet I would not be surprised, but.

If you, it will cause more
people to reconsider, like, do

I walk or do I use the thing?

And if you're using the thing, you're
paying for the thing so you can

maintain the thing, which is nice.

Right.

Whereas like in America, even for
roads, like there's a tax and gas,

because ideally the more gas you're
using, the more you're driving, the

more you're doing things to the road.

So helps to have that built in.

So, so you're gonna, you're
going to be an elevator tycoon.

Okay.

CJ: a, I was like, Oh man,
this is a genius business.

You just like, yeah, it was like a
kind of like vending machines in a

way, but yeah, some giant machine
that is kind of like on autopilot,

Colin: Yeah, I mean the bathroom
is similar very similar.

CJ: Yes.

Yes.

So yeah, that was kind of interesting.

The There's like so many apps
too, that were really helpful.

Google maps, obviously like you can get
around anywhere really easily with that.

I was shocked that in Venice
where the, like most of the

ways you get around is by boat.

You could go on Google maps.

And ask it for like public transportation
directions and it'll tell you, like, go

to this boat station and then the boat,
like the next boat is coming at this time.

And then again, you can just
kind of like actually for that,

we got like 48 hour tickets or
something, but again, like Apple

Colin: in like as many
as you need for 48 hours

CJ: Exactly.

Yeah.

And he's like, hop on the boat, like
takes you to another part of the island.

You hop off the boat and just
walk around through this maze of

little European shops and stuff.

Colin: Yeah.

I loved that about London was that you
could use Apple pay just in the tube and

not have to have like, you didn't have
to even think about, do I need a 48 hour?

Do I need it?

Whatever.

Like it's just each time you pay.

And you don't need another app.

It's literally just the Apple pay.

Whereas when we were in Paris, you had
to go buy these like tiny slips of paper.

They are, they're all super small.

And you had to just have enough
of them on you at any given time.

And you're just like running
them through this little machine.

And I'm sure Paris we'll get there.

But it was less convenient because
sometimes we would like count and

it's like, Oh, we have enough to get
there, but not enough to get back.

So now we had to go buy another
handful of these things.

But yeah, I mean, just the
ubiquity of Apple pay Google maps.

When we were in London, they,
they even had Uber branded boats.

To get across some of the channels.

So it was like in the Uber app, you
could get a car or you could jump

on this, like fair, it was like a
ferry that was like Uber branded.

And I think it was like a Uber like
company for boats that Uber just bought

and slapped their logo on everything.

So yeah, I mean, public transit
trains, I mean, all that stuff.

Like when we took a train from London
to Paris and it felt like the future

to like, it was just like, wow, like
this is how all travel should be.

CJ: Yeah, it was pretty cool
to see like the 300 plus

kilometers per hour or whatever.

You just, like, there's
insanely fast compared to any

train in the United States.

Like yeah.

Yeah, tons of fun.

Oh, the one thing about Google
Maps, though that was a little

bit surprising to me was that.

It did not have all of the restaurants.

And so here I'm used to just like
pulling up Google maps and like clicking

on the, like the restaurant shortcut
and then seeing all of the restaurants

with their ratings and everything.

I would say maybe it had 10 to
20 percent of the restaurants

in the cities we went to.

And so we just kind of
abandoned that as a tool.

And we just like walked down the street
and stumble into, into restaurants or

like ask locals for recommendations
and go to the, those So yeah, that

didn't that didn't solve that need
as much translation apps, like

translation apps are insanely good.

Now there was, there's, I mean, the
Google translate app has like the

camera, the live, like AR camera.

So you can just like point it
at things and then it changes.

The text in line to the translated text.

Amazing.

We also had like the real
time conversation app.

So there was a time where we were,
my mom is like, she likes to order

things off the menu when, and when
you're working or when you're talking

to someone that does not speak English
and you don't speak any Italian.

Like that became a challenge.

And so we, we just like whipped
out this app and we're having this

conversation gentlemen, it was like
amazing that we were able to communicate

like very specific weird needs.

Colin: Yeah

CJ: and it, yeah, totally
translated for us.

Colin: on that one Because we're
looking at maybe going to Japan and I

guess being It's not it is possible.

It's just not the norm to be vegan in
Japan and so there have been a lot of

recommendations to either on a literal
card or Having a bunch of translations

and explanations and something you just
hand them instead of having to like check

to see like, is this vegetarian vegan?

Is it, you know, not every culture
views the same like eggs might

be included and things like that.

So that's something that I've
been thinking about a little bit.

And back to the food.

I will put a link to it, but there's
this YouTube video called Top Jaw that

is like my go to for any place that
I'm traveling in the world now for food

because he, it's kind of Anthony Bourdain.

If he was like born in the YouTube era
very charismatic, very good, like editing.

I mean, he just, He'll do like a 48 hours
in London, 48 hours in Paris, 48 hours in

Rome, and just breaks down like all the
places where all the chefs go and eat.

And so like, cause things like Yelp, I
don't think are as big in Europe either.

And so like, and it's tricky cause
everyone's reviewing the things

that they don't like more than
the things that they do like.

And so this is really
just like all the hits.

So if you're only in a place for a short
period of time, You know, you could

definitely talk to somebody and get
some recommendations, but like this,

this guy is definitely good for that.

What did you guys use for
service when you were there?

CJ: For like cell phone

Colin: Yeah,

CJ: Yeah we didn't do anything fancy.

We're on AT& T.

And so I'm sure we,
yeah, we overpaid for it.

It was like 18 a day for both of
us to have like all of our normal

service and data and everything.

But we wanted to do that because
we could still like tether the kids

devices if they needed a break and we're
on a train or something, they could

still like play a game or whatever.

And I wanted to access to like everything.

So like,

Colin: Yeah, you don't want
to be tying looking for Wi Fi,

which is what a lot of people do

CJ: Yeah.

Colin: The cool thing here.

I have done what you did But depending
on how patient I want to be And the eSIMs

are in all of our phones now, right?

We don't have if you have a more
modern phone, you don't even have

a SIM card anymore I use this app
called Arrow and lets you look for and

download Sims for all the different
networks and all the different regions.

So you can do like one for all of
Europe, if you're traveling all over.

You can do just an Italy one.

You can really fine tune it.

It does make it a little bit
weird in that, like, it's

going to give you a new number.

So like that part of it is weird
if it doesn't like teaching my mom

how to enable and disable eSIMs is
not the easiest thing in the world.

You're in the settings and you're, if
it doesn't work, you're not online.

So you can't ask for help
and all sorts of stuff.

But and it's also not something
you can practice cause you don't

have access to the network here.

Right.

So like, it's just going to fail here.

So.

That's been nice.

You just download and prepay for
the ones you want and then you know

what your price is going to be and
sometimes it's like by the minute

or it's unlimited, things like that.

So you can kind of figure it out.

CJ: Got it.

Yeah.

We used everyone that was on
the trip, we set up a WhatsApp

Colin: Mm hmm.

CJ: and everyone had different service
providers and different stuff, but

we just used WhatsApp for everything.

And even like calling and if we needed
to coordinate anything, it was, we either

call each other or we called like, you
know, local, like the car service or

Colin: Most of them probably
had a WhatsApp number, right?

CJ: Yeah.

They were, or we just called like
their normal phone number through

what's, I don't know if they all were
just like using WhatsApp instead,

but yeah, we just called through.

Yeah.

WhatsApp was amazing and it worked great

Colin: Yeah, I know in like a lot
of places in Asia, like they'll,

well, there'll be like WeChat,
but like Bali, almost everything's

like a WhatsApp number or there's a
bunch of different apps like that.

So yeah, communication apps, train
travel Yeah, I think other tech things.

I'm pretty minimalistic on my travel.

I don't go, you know, with
like four rolling suitcases.

So Chanel and I have gotten
pretty good at one bag travel.

She has this really cool bag
that is two backpacks that clip

together into one giant backpack.

It's like a backpackers backpack.

And then when we get to where we're
going, the top shell like on snaps and

that's like all of her extra stuff.

And then she just has this day
pack that she can run around with.

I have to like bring a smaller
backpack that like folds up

into my regular backpack.

But yeah, so kind of been just like
getting all the, the right chargers

and the right, you know things that you
need and not having to have 20 different

cables for everything that you own.

That stuff's also just
getting a little bit easier.

Everything we have is smaller these days.

Nice.

CJ: do one bag mostly.

So all of us, like all eight of us
had one bag and that worked great.

My, my backpack.

Is one that like has like
this, the expansion thing.

So there's two giant zippers that
if they're shut, then it ends up

being like, I think a 35 liter
or maybe a, or maybe a 40 liter.

And then if you unzip those two
things, it goes to 65 liter.

And so I was like, I just need
it to be small for the carry on.

And then I'll like have my day pack
be my like, we had a day pack that

we all needed to carry four people's
worth of like snacks and like

jackets and things like that anyways.

And so when we flew, I basically had
two bags, but then the rest of the

trip, when we were like in trains and
busing around and whatever, then I would

just like stuff it all into like this
giant 60 liter and so for our family

of four, that worked really well.

And the kids like did an amazing
job of carrying all their own stuff.

It was like shocking.

Yeah.

And we did have to do
laundry in a sink once.

And then we did laundry in an Airbnb once.

But yeah, it worked out like great.

So we, I think we all had for 10 days, I
think we all had three or four changes of

clothes and it worked like totally fine.

Colin: Yeah.

If you can plan around an Airbnb
to do laundry or something

like that, that's, that's huge.

I think that's the challenge is
a lot of people will do that.

Like, Oh, what if I need this?

Or what if I need this?

And you really start to learn.

And like, I even have keep a
running list of like, these are

the things that I'm bringing.

And then I read down all
the things I never used.

And then I just keep trying to dwindle it.

Granted, it's like if you're
going to go out for nicer dinners,

you want to have, nicer clothes.

So then it's like a little bit of that
athleisure like stuff that could be you

know, the Lululemon work pant that looks
like slacks, but it's also comfortable.

And then you start getting
into all that kind of stuff.

There's a really good, another
YouTube channel called pack hacker.

This is if you want to really go down
the one bag, travel, the organizers, all

the things that you could travel with.

Cause I do like to have another bag cause
my Big bag can't fit under the seat, but

I want my, if I'm bringing a laptop or
an iPad or all my like things so that

I'm not raw dogging a flight I can have
that stuff because I think that's that

trend of, oh, how can you you know, go
on a long flight without doing anything?

That's not me.

I can't, can't do it.

CJ: Yeah,

Colin: I need ultimate distractions.

CJ: going back to the clothes.

Do you, do you have like special clothing
that you've bought like just for travel?

Because it's no.

Colin: No, I mean, it's stuff
that I wear today and like

I've, it's not like a uniform.

It's not like the minimalist, you
know, I only wear black and gray

t shirts and stuff like that.

It's, you know, a lot of that stuff
I ended up just like, as I replaced

my normal wardrobe, I've been just
thinking about like, what's something

that can get a lot of different use.

And I'm like, I think we've talked
about this on the show, like trying to

start to mature my wardrobe even more.

So like less startup t shirts, more like
what you're wearing, you've got, you know

nicer shirts with collars and you know,
even card yeah, those kinds of things.

So Yeah.

You don't want to be taking like a
huge chunky knit sweater with you.

That's going to take
up half your backpack.

And you also don't want to necessarily
be carrying literal 60 like a

full weight of 60 liters either.

So like getting the right
shape of backpack, I have two,

one that's extremely boxy.

But it holds a lot of stuff
and like holds on my back.

Well, so that, cause I, my other one
was more like a turtle shell and like

halfway through the trip, I'm just
like dreading carrying this thing.

Especially if you're moving around with
public transit or how you get around,

you end up like learning what, you know,
things like hip, hip the hip straps

and stuff like that can really help.

CJ: Totally.

Yeah, I think the kids like for the
kids, we basically just stuffed their

school backpacks and by the end,
I think they definitely would have

benefited from like the hip strap thing.

And so if we were to go any, any
longer than 10 days, which this

was definitely like a once in
a decade type of trip for us.

So I don't know if we're going to
be doing any like any more travel

anytime soon, like this long, but

Colin: well, and I wouldn't, I wouldn't
recommend like, unless you're going

to travel a lot, don't go out and
splurge on these like travel backpacks.

Like it's become a new thing
of all the brands are like, how

can we sell you another thing?

So we've got your car camping backpack.

The thing that you're
never going to carry.

We've got the away bags
with the fancy rollers.

My mom went and realized that
in Rome, you're not rolling a

suitcase around super easily.

Right.

But she's also not going to
be carrying a lot of bags.

And so it does depend on
where you're at in your life.

If you're going to splurge for,
you know, someone to take your bags

magically from the hotel to, to the
airport for you, stuff like that,

then you can pack differently, but if
you're going to be doing hostels or

even Airbnb and stuff that's a big one.

There's this network that
I found called Selena.

And then there's another one that
I'll try to remember off the top of

my head that we ended up staying at a
lot because they're hostile like, but

they're like hostiles run by a WeWork.

If you had to get like very much focused
on like a community, but also like,

Same experience everywhere you go.

And so if we couldn't find something,
we knew there would be a Selena.

The other one is escaping me.

We'll put it in the show
notes that we also used.

And like, we, we, we somehow like
bought tickets for the train.

What was it?

We bought tickets for the train to
get to the airport, to go to us, to,

from Paris to London, and we bought
them for the day that we bought them.

Instead of for tomorrow and we didn't
realize it until we got to the train

tomorrow So we get there the next
day and the lady's like, yeah, you

missed your train Like we're like,
oh, we're almost late for our train.

They're like no you
missed it by like a day

So we were able to go right back to
the hotel that we had just checked out

of and like check in it was all like
automated and like because we were

already a member it was super easy and
It wasn't like, if we were at a Hilton,

we'd be like, Oh no, are we going to
be able to get a room for tonight?

Are we going to find a new hotel?

So I'll find the name of it.

It's literally like a Swedish brand
and it's like an Ikea version of, of a

hostel and very well done and, you know,
I'm more interested in some of those

things because of coworking and the
community stuff and like watching, you

know, even they had an app and like, how
does this work and their onboarding and

all that kind of stuff was really cool.

CJ: that sounds like tons of fun.

I'm curious if you would take, like,
would you recommend someone take

their kids to something like that?

Colin: Yeah.

So yeah, like Selena, they had
like hostel hostels where you're

in bunks in rooms, but then you
could get your own rooms as well.

So I was in my own room because
it was cheap enough that it was

cheaper than a hotel, but I just
didn't want to deal with people.

And I got lucky on one of those
because that was also when I got COVID.

And then I was like
just dying in that room.

And I had to tell them like, that's fine.

No one is allowed to come
in this room for a few days.

And then I transferred to
an actual hotel after that.

Cause they were like, yeah,
you need to get out of here.

But if I had been sharing bunks like
that would have been a nightmare

one, just being sick, but also
don't want to get other people sick.

I think a lot of that also depends.

Like if you're just yourself traveling,
you can put up with a lot more stuff

and chaos and just show up, you know,
a lot of people, we, we've talked about

the idea of like going to the airport.

I think there was a brand that did this
as like stopping people at the airport.

And saying, do you want
to spin this wheel?

If we will pay for you to go wherever
you want to go, but that means

you're not going on your normal trip.

And so depending on what you're doing,
like people are like, Oh no, I can't,

you know, and some of them was like,
you're going to Egypt on us around

trip, like hotels, all this stuff.

And it would be fun to just like, Know
you have some time, pack some bags,

and just like go to the airport and
see what the cheapest tickets are.

Maybe not the cheapest tickets.

More, more, most interesting tickets.

Heh heh heh.

CJ: Our friends on the way
home, their flight got canceled.

And so they were sort of in that
situation where it was like, all right,

now you have a few hours to figure
out what you're going to do for the

rest or like for the next three days
until the next flight out of here.

Which was, yeah, I don't know.

I can't wait to have the like
margin and flexibility to be

able to do something like that.

But.

Colin: Yeah, I mean sometimes it's
expensive to travel last minute, but

then other times if you play your
cards right, you've got inventory

that's gonna go unused and you
can Get some killer deals too.

So we can talk about deals and points
and all that stuff in a future episode.

But yeah, let's see.

Last episode, again, super time dilated.

Who knows when this episode is coming
out, but last episode I talked about

making videos, tutorials, streams.

Still haven't done this.

I have a post it next
to me that says stream.

I'm going to get there.

Instead I have built, I've been
learning unity and I have built

the hardest version of Flappy Bird.

It is, it is it is very humbling but also
surprisingly easy to make Flappy Bird.

So it's been, it's been fun.

CJ: So this is starting
from scratch with Unity.

You open it up and how much, like what
percentage of the work involved with

building Flappy Bird was actually writing
code versus kind of like dragging and

dropping and clicking around and kind
of like graphic design and audio design.

Things like that.

Colin: Yeah.

I'll, I'll include the tutorial I used.

And I was mostly like, again,
I was watching the guy's video.

I was like, this is so well done.

It is amazingly like, I've not seen
many software development tutorials

done the same way, even though this
is like it is software development,

but it is games, game development.

Is like what we already know in
web dev, like tilted 90 degrees.

It has been pretty wild.

Cause we actually see this with
discord activities, developers where

they're not necessarily web developers.

And to me, it's like kind of taken for
granted, but like, they don't know a lot

about like even making an HTTP request
from unity is like a foreign idea.

It does.

It's possible.

But it's, it's just
slightly tilted on its head.

And I think when I opened a project,
it took me a while to understand.

I'm like, where the heck is everything?

Like I'm like

CJ: Yeah.

Colin: for this word that's
in the UI and I can't find it.

And so there is this a little bit
of magic that unity does where.

You can drag it.

You can drag in a picture, like a
sprite of the pipe and the bird, and

you can give them collision properties.

You don't have to write the code for that.

It knows what it means to run into
each other and things like that.

So like a lot of that stuff, when
you, if you're going to build a

game from absolute scratch, you
are writing that code as well.

You do not need to do that in Unity.

You can do a 2D collider.

You can do a 3D collider.

You can have triggers, so like, you
know, a collide with an invisible thing.

So like in Flappy Bird, you need to know
when you go through the pipes, but you

don't want to slam into an invisible wall.

So you need to be able to go through that.

And we can then write events to say,
when I pass through this barrier, add

to the score when I hit the pipe, end
the game, you know, let them restart.

All that kind of stuff.

So it is a little bit interesting 'cause
sometimes you like, look for the code.

I'm like, oh, where's
the binding for this?

And a lot of the binding
is also in the ui.

So this might be similar to VS
code, but like you will have

a class and you can create.

In the tutorial, they called them
slots, but like they're variables.

So like public variables and
private, if you make it public, it

shows up in the UI for that thing.

So like the bird can have a slot that.

is, maybe let's do like a
UI, like a text element.

Or even, if we back up even
more, the thing that is keeping

track of score can be invisible.

It's just a class.

That can have a slot, which
is the text component.

You can drag the text
component into that variable.

So you're never tell, like you can tell
it in code, Bind this variable to this

text and go find it and use it in code.

But a lot of times you just drag
it, which then means when you go

search for it, you're not going
to find it because it's in the UI.

And so I can see how there's a lot
of like, why isn't my game working?

And you're like, Oh, you forgot
to drag this thing into the slot.

I don't know if that's the norm or if
it's more like testable to do it in code.

And then you, I don't even know if
people write, I imagine they write

tests for video games, but so it
is, that's the kind of stuff that's

just like, Oh, this is interesting.

And it does make you
think a lot differently.

So that's been fun to do, but yeah, I
don't think I could have done it by myself

without the tutorial, just because I
didn't know what drawers to put things in.

CJ: yeah, it almost sort of sounds
like interface builder for like

mobile, iOS or something where you

Colin: Yeah.

X codes very similar.

CJ: yeah.

Okay.

Interesting.

Colin: Yeah, I mean, it starts to make
you realize, like, as long as you have

enough patience to, like, write out
and think about, like, what slots need

to be connected to what, what managers
do you have, what logic do you need to

have where and then, like, making sure
the components can talk to each other,

either through these slots or going and
finding them, you can build a pretty

complex game without a lot of knowledge.

I think it's probably easier
because I, like, I don't know.

C sharp, but like, it looks like
most languages that I've used.

And so I'm just writing, you
know, code and it's been fine.

And you know, I'm using when you
open the code, it tries to open

it in VS code, which is nice.

Cause then I have copilot, but I
can also just open it in cursor.

And then I have cursor
at my disposal as well.

So

CJ: got it.

Okay.

And the, so the amount of code
that you're writing to get flappy

bird working is like hundreds of
lines, like thousands of lines.

Colin: For Flappy Bird, end state,
game state is probably 100 lines.

CJ: Wow.

Colin: 50 at most.

Yeah.

So, I mean, it's like on screen, you
could see it all if you really needed to.

But again, that's, that's the
power of an engine, right?

So like these things like phaser and
unity, they all have built in the

idea of that you're going to probably
run on a surface or you're going to

run into things and stuff like that.

And so you have events click handlers,
input handlers, all that stuff that I

remember doing like V visual studio,
like Vs like VS code, like, like

visual studio, basic stuff where
you are writing all that by hand.

And so I imagine that that is why
we have the game engines that we do.

CJ: Nice.

When we were traveling, my buddy
was telling the kids about unity and

unreal and all this and how like they
should try downloading game engines.

And as a meta note, I think My
kids are reaching a point where

like they don't want to listen
to their parents advice anymore.

And so having this like trusted other
like advisor or like kind of a mentor

for them, I'm like, okay, if I want
them to do something, I should just tell

him to tell them that they should like
do the thing because now they're like,

oh yeah, Travis told us about this.

So we're going to like go
download unity and get it set up.

And so Yeah, I'd love to, to take a look
at the tutorial or like send it to them.

Cause I think they're really
interested in just like experimenting.

And I was kind of curious if
like you had any issues running C

sharp on Mac, but it sounds like
that's like handled by probably by

unity somewhere inside of there.

Colin: Yeah.

I think if you're not used to it,
like when you click on the code

scripts, like one, you had to learn
like, where the heck do I even put

this thing and where does it live?

When you double click on the code
script, it opens another ID and you're

like, what the heck, what just happened?

And like, as you're saving it, it's.

Re pulling it in and doing it
like there is an annoying loader.

Every time you hit save in your ID, by
the time you switch to unity, it's still

working and then you got to hit play.

And then it does its
little build compile thing.

And then, so it's, it
can be pretty tedious.

The cool thing is that there's like a.

You don't have to always
compile to see what's going on.

Like you can change the code while
you're, you can change the code and

the variables while you're in the game.

So making those slots in the UI allows
you to even change the score and stuff

while you're playing game to see,
like, you know, even before I built the

collider, I just had a little context
menu that was like increment score

and to make sure the UI is wired up.

But yeah, I think they'll really like it.

What I loved about the guys doing this.

The way that he taught was really good at
teaching the you the the concepts but also

the tools And then it was like a 50 minute
video, which I think most of us have

learned is overwhelming when you're trying
to learn something But it was broke.

It was well chaptered and he did these
recaps like every 10 minutes where it's

like everything that we just learned.

Let's go back over it in
case you miss something.

And then you have this new starting point
of, okay, we went through the pipes.

Sure.

The game's not very exciting right now.

But I mean, like even that a hundred
lines, let's say it's a hundred, like

that's for spawning pipes and randomizing
it and handling all that, you know, end

game state as well, restarting the game,
which again would be probably thousands of

lines if you had to write it all yourself.

CJ: And the taking it from the point
that you're at now and embedding it

into discord, like that, that part,
I'm assuming like, that's part of

where you're headed for this particular
game, like, it sounds like it's,

it's like, I mean, floppy birds, I
guess, solo like single person thing.

Was your, your idea to make
it multiplayer or like have a

leaderboard or kind of like what?

Yeah.

What's next

Colin: So, I'm working on figuring
out how to better support people

bringing Unity games to Discord.

And I needed to learn
more about the tool first.

And so I mostly did this just to
learn where the heck everything is.

And then I opened one
of unity's sample apps.

So they have an FPS first person shooter
sample and like a Mario cart ask sample.

And when I opened those ones, they
were three D and I was immediately

overwhelmed because I, again, I couldn't,
I was like, I know where the UI is.

But I don't know where the
heck it's getting updated.

And it turns out there's
also like multiple scenes.

And if you don't load the other scene,
you can't even look at that stuff.

So I had to like, what I was able to
do after that tutorial with flappy

bird was I was able to open the
first person shooter game and then.

Get that game embedded in discord
and then also send data from unity

to discord and from discord to
unity So that was my ultimate goal.

So that is all working, which is
nice So when you load the first

person shooter now, it has your
username and your avatar in the game.

It's still one single player So now
I'm gonna start to think through like,

okay, what does it look like to do?

multiplayer And I need to
figure out like are we gonna do?

Does it make sense to just have the
events from the SDK that we have

now and just pass them on to Unity?

Or can Unity get those events directly?

And vice versa, like, can Uni Like,
right now I'm Taking unity to make a call

out to the JavaScript, the JavaScript,
then making its call back to discord.

Can we just cut that middle man
out and just go straight to it?

Cause we use like a post message
protocol to do a lot of our stuff.

So like, I'm pretty sure unity can
just go straight to it, but that would

just mean that we have a unity SDK,
which I don't think the team wants

to build right now, but we'll see.

I mean, I think it makes sense too.

CJ: And like, when you set up a
game like this, I am assuming that

like in dev, you're just running
the game locally in your like local

instance of unity, but in a production
environment, it probably needs to be

deployed to some server or something.

Like,

Colin: Yeah.

CJ: like, how the heck
does that even work?

Colin: so getting this to run locally, I
have to build the game, so I now have a

An actual built target that I drop into my
web app, I'm using a V app as my server.

So I have v running as it's
hosting the backend and, and node

and then rendering the front end.

And I'm just embedding the, the
WebGL game from, from Unity.

And in that JavaScript app is where I
have to instantiate the embedded app.

SDK for Discord, do all the auth.

To the backend to get your access
tokens and stuff like that.

And so there is a lot, that's
where like, when I say like web

dev and game dev are not the same.

There's a bunch of wiring
that I don't think we should

expect game devs to have to do.

So I'm trying to figure out
like, is there a way to take

your build target, your game?

And then we just build up all that
stuff around it for you or like

a skeleton or like, you know, how
Vite and some of these others have

like NPX create unity discord app.

And we just like drop your build
here and it just works because

it's a lot of in our tutorials.

I'm like, man, I wish we
could cut out half this stuff.

Like it's just something that
every person has to do, but we

should probably just do it for you.

So I'm thinking through that as well.

So it's, it's been a little side
quest that is very much informing

my actual work, which is helpful.

CJ: Would absolutely love to watch
you go through and just like from

scratch, take the first person shooter
and like do all the steps you've

already done to put it into discord.

Like for sure.

I think that would be an insanely
valuable video prerecorded or not, or

like streamed or whatever, like that

Colin: back to, that goes
back to the making videos.

So

CJ: Yeah.

Yeah.

Colin: We'll have to do

CJ: that's, that's your yeah,
that's your your, your request.

Colin: Yeah, well, if you and the kids
get into unity, I'm very curious to

talk about next episode because yeah,
I think there's a lot to learn by us

going into these other industries.

And again, I think I said it last time.

I don't understand why game
devs have such a hard time.

And maybe it's just that the
companies don't value them.

But like, It is hard to make a game like
it is way harder than web development.

So like the engineers, if you
are game dev and you're looking

for work, like pick up some web
stuff and you are going to be set.

It is a beast.

You have to be thinking
like you have game loops.

You're thinking about something
that's updating every second

or every frame, really.

And in web, you could do that with CSS
animations and stuff like that, but you're

not thinking of FPS and stuff like that
when you're, You know, or even like in

flappy bird, you have to like, when you
move the bird, you have to multiply it

by this time value because otherwise
the bird will move at a different speed

on each machine based on clock speed.

CJ: Whoa.

Colin: I guess in the tutorial, he was
explaining that sometimes game studios

will get this wrong and they tied like
the item decay to the some value, but

they didn't account for clock speed.

And so like on some computers,
the items are just like, to.

Instantly disintegrating
and on others they're fine.

So you have to think about the
machine that you're running on too.

CJ: Interesting.

Yeah.

Way different.

Way different than web dev.

Colin: I guess we have we
have date pickers to deal

with but and and time zones

CJ: It's so fun.

Even just to like, I guess like thinking
of that, like T shaped developer, right?

Like it's so fun to reach out on the
arms of that T and dabble in like weird

side quests that aren't necessarily kind
of like the main thing, whether that's

networking or 3d printing or like any of
these other little, little niches and game

dev and, and mobile dev definitely feel
like in that same vein for me, at least.

So very cool.

Awesome.

That's exciting.

I think Yeah, I, I I'll get the kids
ready for during the holiday break.

We're going to watch
some Colin streaming some

Colin: let's do

CJ: of discord stuff.

Yeah.

Colin: What's going on in your world?

CJ: So it is time for me to
wind down from craftwork.

I have decided that I'm going
to close the, close the.

Door and close that chapter of my
career and move on to the next thing.

So yeah, this I'm in
the last two weeks now.

So I'm kind of just like wrapping
up projects, tying up loose ends,

documenting a bunch of things.

We've got like one big project that
I'm like wrapping up like sort of

disconnecting and integration now that
we've fully built everything in house.

And then, yeah, just trying to get the
team set up as best they can, as best I

can for them to succeed going forward.

And I, I'm really pumped for them.

I think it's going to be really successful
and loved working with the team.

So if you're a Rails dev and you're
looking for your next opportunity,

Craftwork definitely might be it.

Colin: Nice.

Yeah, i'm sure that the team is gonna
miss you But what kind if you can talk

about it, what kind of role are you?

Heading into next.

CJ: I am switching back into Dev Advocacy.

So yeah, going back to Dev Advocacy
at a company called Samsara.

So they they're in like the IOT space,
so everything will be brand new.

We'll see.

We'll see how it goes.

By

Colin: the time this comes out,
yeah, Jinx you will probably have

already been there for a little

CJ: Yes.

Yes.

Colin: Which a little meta, but
I'm curious to figure out how

we can get these episodes to be
closer to the recording date.

We can talk about that offline, but
I think there's a way we can do it.

I don't think we have to, necessarily
like go out every week by any means,

but maybe there's a way for us to, you
know, do live to tape or something.

It just comes out the day we do
it, but we'll, we'll figure it out.

Cause I've been listening to our own
episodes, which has been nice when

they come out, because I'm like,
it's almost like a journal where I'm

looking back at the stuff that we did.

And I'm like, wow, none of that
came to pass or, or we nailed it.

And we're like, oh, all the
things we talked about came

out exactly as we had hoped.

CJ: Yeah.

We, I think we have like six or
something episodes right now recorded

that are not like edited or published.

So we are,

Colin: That's like 12 weeks of content.

So this will be coming out in May.

No,

CJ: yeah, yeah.

End of Q1 next year or something.

I don't know.

Colin: I think we can maybe figure
that out and maybe there might even be

some episodes that we just skip over.

They were good things that we can
get it closer to time, but yeah,

stoked for you, pumped for you.

Welcome back to developer advocacy.

CJ: Yes.

Colin: I've got this, and I've not opened
it yet, but the, the essential guide

to developer marketing and relations.

There's not a lot of books on DevRel,
so I figured I'd just like read

through the ones that are out there
and see if I, Gaining the insights.

But yeah, welcome back
to the, the other side.

CJ: Thank you.

Yeah.

It's I think it's going to
be a little bit different.

I think definitely different from Stripe.

So the, it's the very first dev
advocate they've had, or at least the

first they've had in many, many years.

So it'll be kind of like building
the function from scratch,

which I love that zero to one,
so we're going to get into it.

Yep.

Colin: Very cool.

Well, I guess that means maybe
just learning some fun things in

your holiday break with the kids.

I'll definitely share this, this other
tutorial because I think you'll appreciate

just the way that he teaches too.

And we can see what the kids built.

CJ: Yes, totally.

Totally.

They're, they're just like the way
that they're able to like wield AI

is so shockingly impressive already.

And so I have no doubt that
they'll be able to pick this up

Colin: Yeah.

CJ: jet GPT.

Colin: I imagine, I mean, there was like
you know, kids who are born into iPads,

these are essentially like AI native, your
kids are going to be AI native kids where

they're just used to growing up with it.

I've seen it be a little bit of a,
there was a little bit of a backlash

on it in interviews where I think
someone was like full on coffee pasta.

Off screen and like accidentally pasted
the entire answer into like the on

screen thing and then like immediately
pulled it back and hope that no one

had seen it and it's just like, okay,
you're not if this is like an interview

where you Don't necessarily need to
finish, but we want to see how you

think and how you work through things.

And then there's like a principal's
interview, like you're going to fail.

Like, it's just not going to go well.

And I think we still don't
allow AI in our interviews.

But we very much encourage it.

And we're like, what our AI
strategy is for like, I see like,

what are you allowed to use?

What can you use?

How do we use it?

Honestly, I still haven't found
any use for image generation.

Like I just don't like how it looks
when it comes out and I don't really

have that much like use for it rather
than like, I find that I need icons

and stuff more often than like images.

So like a mid journey doesn't
really do what I need it to do.

Yeah.

But from my writing, like I'm still
using Grammarly and Copilot and Cursor.

So they're they've become essential, but
I could still do my work without them.

If I did not have them.

CJ: Yeah, absolutely.

I think the it's, it's been funny
to see the like interview cheating.

The trend, there was a fireship,
there's a funny fireship video about

like the rate of, of people cheating on
technical interviews with a, with AI.

And I think interviews
will just have to shift.

It'll be like an arms race of like, you
know, how do you make, how do you ask a

question that can't be answered by AI?

Like you have to demonstrate some
understanding instead of just like

being able to read off of some answer.

Maybe, I don't know, like I guess
the other part Part of it is like,

if you're proficient enough at like
using in some LLM to cheat at a at

a technical interview, then you,
maybe you're like also proficient

enough to use AI to do the job.

So,

Colin: That was the argument, right?

Is like, if it's important to do the thing
and you demonstrate, you can do the thing.

Does it matter how you got to the thing?

And it's like, well yeah, if the
interview specifically said not to I

mean, if it was in pre AI world, it'd
be the equivalent of taking a stack

overflow and putting it off as your own.

I think if you know what you're going
to be tested on and you use those tools

as prep or like a pairing partner, sure.

Right.

That is what I would use it for.

Like, have it spar with you, have
it throw out questions, pretend

to be your interviewer and give
you prompts and learn from it.

I'm, we didn't talk about at the
top of the show, but like I am

using Advent of Code for that.

I am doing my first pass without AI.

And then I'm asking AI to refactor
or tell me if there's a faster

way, a better way, a different way.

What didn't I think about?

And then I'm learning from it.

Am I going to use that?

You know, a lot of the AOC codes
are not, are not necessarily things

you're going to do in your day to day.

So like, you're like, cool, run through
all these numbers and find the most

different one every fourth time.

Sure.

Like, I'm sure there's 20
different ways to do it.

Now, if these get trained on enough
different things, like, are we all

gonna end up at the same answer,
or varying states of bad answers?

We'll see, but

CJ: I've been of code this year.

I opened up cursor and
like pasted in the example.

And then it was just like,
tab, tab, tab, ran it.

And it was the right answer.

I was like, that wasn't any

Colin: Yeah, that's the thing too, right?

CJ: takes away the fun.

Yeah.

It's like,

Colin: Now it depends on
what you're doing, right?

Like if your job was just to get it done
and you don't care to have fun and you

don't want to spend an hour on it, cool.

But if you want to work the brain, I
think this is like working out, right?

If you don't use it,
you're going to lose it.

So keep doing it.

And I'm sure, like, I think we,
I listened to our AI episode too.

That was the one where
it was like looking back.

I'm like, wow, six weeks has
already been so different.

But well, I'm sure we will
come back to that topic more.

And Yeah, we can probably leave it there.

We're at 50.

I'll

CJ: Sounds great.

Awesome.

Yeah.

Thanks so much for listening.

If You want to check out the links
to resources and the videos and blog

posts that we talked about in this
episode, head over to build and learn.

dev where you can find all of those.

Thanks for listening.

We'll see you next time.

Bye friends.